Today’s episode is sponsored by Privacy.com Privacy.com lets you make online purchases
using virtual credit cards, which helps keep your real identity and bank info safe. Congratulations! You’ve just been put in charge of a long-running
franchise. The series is yours, but it comes tied to
both a blessing and a terrible curse: Expectations. The series has a built-in legion of fans ready
for the next installment, but they also expect things to be a certain way. Fans want someone to push the thing they love
to new heights, but they also expect something familiar. They want to return to a place they have loved
before. A game series comes packaged with lots of
expectations – its characters, settings and themes. Its tone, gameplay, and aesthetics. Even down to the creative staff in charge
of making the game will all mix together to create a game’s brand identity. A new game in a series needs to do two things:
First, it needs to add something unique to make it stand out from the other entries. Unless you’re reviving a long-dormant series,
no one celebrates a rehash. But being too experimental is risky too, because
secondly, the new game needs to fit smoothly into the old brand identity. If a game breaks from its brand identity too
much it can alienate its established audience who expected something more familiar. If you take the risk and find something fantastic
it could breathe new life into a series. If the new path isn’t a hit though, it could
cost you your biggest fans, which might leave you with nothing. It’s a minor miracle that any game pulls off
this balancing act, but not all of them do. Let’s dive into three games that took some
big chances. Two that didn’t hit the mark, and one of
them that worked out great, but all three show how much you have to balance for a new
game to meet fans’ expectations. If you’re making a new game in a franchise,
you have to take stock of what you’re working with. What does the franchise do right? What are returning players expecting when
they come back for a sequel? Let’s take, oh I don’t know… Banjo-Kazooie as an example. Banjo-Kazooie is a titan in the 3D platforming
space. It’s about exploration, collecting items,
unlocking lots of new moves to solve puzzles, colorful worlds, light hearted characters,
and a goofy British sense of humor that breaks the 4th wall. Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie both checked
all those boxes. Then, after a long Microsoft induced hiatus
came Rare’s third main entry into the franchise: Banjo-Kazooie Nuts and Bolts. Nuts and Bolts was actually the third attempt
at a 3rd entry for the series. The first was a reimagined remake of the first
game. The structure and levels would be very similar,
but with some remixed elements and new challenges. It was scrapped over worries that it would
look too much like a simple graphical update of the older games. The second attempt was still a platformer,
but you raced against the series’ antagonist Gruntilda to complete challenges and find
collectibles. The complexity of designing Gruntilda’s AI
made the game far too difficult to make, so Rare scrapped that idea too. Instead, Rare started looking at how you moved
in a 3D platformer. Over time that idea developed into the game’s
final design. Players would complete missions by building
and piloting custom vehicles. They took an enormous risk with the core gameplay,
something so fundamental to the first game, and changed it to something so fundamentally
different. It tries to appeal to a new audience that
loves building and creative problem solving, but also tries to keep the old audience who
never signed up for that style. The two target audiences don’t really overlap. They definitely tried to appeal to the old
fans. They filled the game with plays on nostalgia
and series traditions. The cast is mostly unchanged. The goofy self-aware British humor is the
same. The general collect-a-thon progression structure
is fundamentally intact. The game’s marquee level is ‘Banjo Land’
– a literal museum full of loving callbacks and iconic memorabilia from the series’ history. Nuts and Bolts’ design is still very much
influenced by its predecessors. The contradicting goals in which audience
to appeal to seems to weigh down on the writing, too. The game praises the series past with Banjo
Land, but jokes about how archaic the old collect-a-thon formula was. And then it’s still a collect-a-thon. The script is chock full of very self-referential
humor, bordering on navel-gazing. One of the new main characters is a video
game designer called the Lord of Games who claims to have created every video game ever
made. The worlds that Banjo and Kazooie travel in
are essentially test builds of the other games he’s created. It feels like a public rehash of the game’s
rocky development cycle. Keep in mind, Nuts and Bolts isn’t even a
bad game! It’d be so much easier to blame poor sales
if the game didn’t work on its own merits, but it did! The creation tools let you approach missions
creatively, and it’s just as satisfying as the best parts of games like Scribblenauts
and Minecraft. But the game isn’t without its flaws. The ranking system encourages first-order
optimal strategies instead of creative solutions, again kind of like Scribblenauts. The physics engine has some mid-2000s jank. Objects are a bit too light and vehicles can
flip over too easily. Aaand the framerate is hot garbage. Nuts and Bolts is a fun game, while not perfect,
but it can’t shake its own past that its fanbase demanded, but couldn’t live up to. After the release of Nuts and Bolts, the Banjo-Kazooie
franchise entered a deadly whirlpool. The new direction alienated old fans. It didn’t sell all that well and couldn’t
attract many new fans. The hype that you get for free when you revive
any beloved franchise was spent and will be very difficult to kickstart, and with each
passing year the original series design seems more and more dated. The failure of Nuts and Bolts made the idea
of yet another new Banjo-Kazooie game very difficult to sell and unappealing to the publishers
who would fund it. The release of one clunker experimental version
of a game made it that much harder for the series to be revived. Nuts and Bolts isn’t bad at what it does, but it was still a boat anchor on the Banjo-Kazooie franchise because of the game’s mismatch with fan’s expectations. Nuts and Bolts is the story of a series revival
gone wrong, but that’s far from the only way games can disappoint on expectations. I want to talk about something much more unusual. What if your game changed its own genre halfway
through? Double Fine’s Brutal Legend is bizarre. Not terrible, but very bizarre. So looking at this what kind of game do you
think this is? Action game? Beat ‘Em Up? Open World? Well you’re kinda right. Brutal Legend was sold as an action adventure
set in a fantastic open world love letter to Heavy Metal. The first few missions deliver on that promise,
playing like an open world hack and slash with some Zelda like exploration. But in the middle of it all BAM! It turns into a console RTS! According to Tim Schafer, Brutal Legend was
designed as a heavy metal themed RTS first, and its more actiony elements added in as
development progressed. There was very little in the game’s marketing that even hinted
at this. A large reason for the bait and switch was
due to some troubles with Brutal Legend’s various publishers. Brutal Legend was originally published by
Vivendi, before their merger with Activision. Vivendi didn’t even want to mention the
phrase ‘RTS’ in any of the marketing. Instead they used using phrases like ‘action
strategy elements’ Tim Schafer: “When we were with Vivendi, they were like ‘You’re not going to say RTS’. and I was like ‘What if someone says Is It An RTS in an interview?’ and they were like ‘You’re going to say no, it’s not’.” They thought the genre was too niche. After Vivendi merged with Activision, they
dropped the project as publisher in 2008. the publishing rights were picked up by EA
in the winter of that year. EA wasn’t against mentioning the RTS aspect
but it was still very much downplayed in the game’s lead up to release. After the first few missions, Brutal Legend’s
true core gameplay is a fusion of hack and slash action and RTS. Like other RTS games you build different units
and capture towers, which let you gather more resources and build more units. Double Fine let you control a character yourself
during team fights, where the battle played out more like a traditional action game. But these two styles never quite mesh together. You’re vulnerable when you’re on the ground
and die super fast. It’s generally better to stay in the air
and let your units do all the work. It’s a console RTS, and as I mentioned in
the Pikmin segment of the fifth Good Design Bad Design, console RTS’s are
notoriously difficult to control. Brutal Legend is no exception and as a result
your easiest and most effective strategy boils down to ‘gather all your units and charge
headfirst into each major structure until you win’. The merging of the genres don’t add up to
more than the sum of their parts, and each part is lackluster on its own compared to
its RTS and action contemporaries. It left Brutal Legend with a hollow core beneath
a clever and cohesive heavy metal setting and theme. It’s not great gameplay, but the marketing
did the perception of the game no favors. Omitting the RTS half of the game in its marketing
campaign is extremely dangerous for a game’s public perception. the game was being sold to players that were
looking specifically for a combat heavy, action based open world game with heavy metal themes. To switch to an unrelated genre after somehow
delivering on the marketing promise for the first few hours is a blatant bait-and-switch. Brutal Legend suffers most from the identity
crisis between what Double Fine had designed vs what their publishers try to sell. Even if the game wasn’t communicated properly
to its audience, it still could have still won them over with a compelling gameplay core. But, the mish-mash of RTS and action concepts
aren’t good enough to make that come true. Without an audience to cater to, and without
the word-of-mouth buzz that a better playing game might have garnered, Brutal Legend managed
to take an over-the-top premise, all the right cameos, and a good performance by Jack Black
and turn it into a forgettable flop. It’s pretty tough to sell a big change in
a series. Nuts and Bolts tried to wrap their changes
in nostalgia, it didn’t work. Brutal Legend tried to hide theirs. Still didn’t work. But it’s not all doom and gloom. It is possible to turn a series shake-up into
a welcome change of pace. The easiest way is to clearly mark the new
game as a spinoff series, like Luigi’s Mansion, Final Fantasy Tactics, or Persona. It’s the opposite of the hide-and-no-one-will-notice
strategy of Brutal Legend. For fans who are willing to be adventurous,
it’s a clear signal about the change of pace. For fans who aren’t interested, the rebrand
still makes clear that the main series they know and love will be back soon. As a bonus, if the new game gains traction,
it can become a major series all its own. But relying on spinoff series doesn’t do
much for a mainline series that could use a renovation. Before you can remodel, you have to know a
series’ structure inside and out. Why did people fall in love with the series
in the first place? What idea is the series built around? And not just the superficial elements, you
have to dig deep. That’s what Banjo Kazooie messed up – they
stuck the superficial similarities on a completely altered core. Without understanding those fundamentals,
it’s difficult to reconstruct the feeling of a game from scratch. For Mario, its core is not stars or Koji Kondo’s
soundtrack and Bowser kidnapping Peach. It’s platforming and colorful obstacle courses. For Final Fantasy, it’s core is dramatic
storytelling in a strange world with progressive RPG combat mechanics. Resident Evil is tension, horror and scarcity. For Zelda, its fundamental core is about adventure
and exploration. Zelda has kept its series trappings around
for so long it can be tough to separate them from the series’ core. Items like the hookshot and boomerang, the
master sword, dungeons, a linear structure. These are things that aesthetically identify
the game as Zelda but aren’t the core of the series’ gameplay. In fact, you can probably think of a few games
that stray away from this formula. They still feel like Zelda because these elements
aren’t part of the essential core. They’re the paintings on the walls. They’re pretty, they round out the experience,
but they are not the walls themselves. There’s one Zelda game that, from the start,
sets out to strip down and change lots of the series’ trappings in order to emphasize
Zelda’s essential core. Breath of the Wild. When Nintendo released Skyward Sword in 2011,
fan fatigue was setting in. The established Zelda formula was starting
to get a little stale. Breath of the Wild director Hidemaro Fujibayashi
said that from the beginning of development, they set out to ‘break the conventions of
the Zelda series.’ They took the linear dungeon-hopping structure
and turned it into a totally free-form one, where you can fight the final boss whenever
you’d like. The world design itself went from a series
of isolated sandboxes to a cohesive and sprawling open world with few limitations. Breakable weapons prevented players from getting
too comfortable with any one weapon set. The classic Zelda dungeon items you’d usually
unlock slowly throughout the game are all now available very early on. Puzzles that have one specific, pre-determined
solution give way to a clockwork world, where systemic gameplay mechanics let you approach
problems from creative angles. You can see the developers building off of
the series’ previous ideas, too. Wind Waker’s Great Sea enticed exploration
with islands in the distance acting as visual breadcrumbs, and Breath of the Wild did way
more of that. A Link Between Worlds had a non-linear dungeon
structure, where you could tackle them in any order, which Breath of the Wild amps up
with its Divine Beasts and shrines scattered throughout the world. But most importantly, Breath of the Wild goes
back to its original, most basic design. A game without many hints, without much direction,
that drops you in a world and expects you to find your own way. Everything is built around discovery of both
the world itself and the mechanics. Even through all of Breath of the Wild’s structural
changes, it still stays true to the foundation, the very core of the Zelda experience: adventure
and exploration. The free-form design is maybe the purest conduit
for player-directed exploration and discovery that the series has ever had. The clockwork world lets your adventure in
Hyrule play out as uniquely your own, guided by your mind and your hand. That’s why Breath of the Wild was so much
more successful as a series reboot. Nuts and Bolts put series trappings on a new,
but shakier foundation. Breath of the Wild brought out its foundation’s
best features. Know what else needs a reboot? Your credit card info if your number gets
stolen. Privacy.com can help keep that from happening
when you shop online. They let you pay and transfer money online
with a virtual credit card number that you can lock to one merchant. If a hacker tried to use that number at another
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it super easy to use! Head to privacy.com/designdoc and sign up
for an account. As a special offer for Design Doc viewers,
new customers will automatically get $5 to spend on their first purchase, for a limited
time only. Yep, that’s free money! Go to privacy.com/designdoc and sign up now! *chill vibes outro from Breath of the Wild*

Game Design Rebrands – New Core Mechanics vs. Fan Expectations ~ Design Doc
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74 thoughts on “Game Design Rebrands – New Core Mechanics vs. Fan Expectations ~ Design Doc

  • September 5, 2019 at 3:01 pm
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    nuts and bolts time

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:01 pm
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    I was legit suprised when Iizuka said that Sonic Lost World wasn't influenced by Sonic Xtreme. Such a waste!

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:02 pm
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    Oh the old DMC reboot failure … nice example

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  • September 5, 2019 at 3:09 pm
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    I think I'm one of the few people who actually enjoyed Nuts&Bolts a lot! Sure it wasn't a proper Banjo title, but I guess I was the target audience that loved the racing and building mechanics with a Banjo cast and soundtrack! It's no Banjo-Threeie, but I'll be darned if I didn't love the heck out of it!

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:16 pm
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    great video ^^

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:23 pm
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    Great video man

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:25 pm
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    love Nuts and Bolts. lbr, Tooie is a garbage, bloated mess of a game. N&B is a lot better, though so not as good as the original, obviously

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:29 pm
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    Of course the first music you used was from Super Paper Mario, the quintessential controversial example of your main points.

    Anyway, a lot of people will argue that these games are good, and that expectations merely dirtied their experience. You do a good job of pointing out that games have to be designed around the fact people have expectations, and that failure to do that is indeed the mark of a job done poorly.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:29 pm
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    Hmm so I wonder how Banjo could have come back. Or even like could now… Like the core is really more maps that are a set of interlocking paths with collectables throughout. It's like a museum. There's a path (uka layle didn't have really any paths on thier maps)

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:31 pm
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    Great video. This is why I love the direction Final Fantasy 15 took with its gameplay, and how Final Fantasy 7 Remake will improve upon that. Turn based combat started getting stale as the series' graphics and scale took leaps forward.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:35 pm
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    Don't copy a series' trappings while rejecting its foundations. Copy the foundations whilst building new trappings.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:40 pm
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    There are two types of Zelda fans

    Those who like ocarina of Time and twilight princess

    And those that like wind waker and breath of the wild.

    One group likes accomplishment and rewards for figuring out the solution

    The other likes exploration, freedom, and worldbuilding

    Everyone likes link Into the past

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:43 pm
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    I don't have a Switch or a Wii U to play BotW so I'm emulating it, but that doesn't do the game any justice.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:45 pm
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    "It was scrapped over worries that it would look too much like a simple graphical update of the older games."

    Boy, the gaming industry sure changed since then, huh?

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:49 pm
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    I think nuts & bolts would've done better if we got banjo threeie first, with banjo in smash and all I still have hope

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:53 pm
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    10:53 "But relying on spin-off series doesn't do much for a mainline series that could use a renovation."
    Not going to lie, I expected to see some Pokémon footage in the background there. 😛

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 3:54 pm
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    Huh. Odd. When you said you would highlight games that didn't quite hit the mark on a significant change, the first thing that came to mind with BotW. Ooof, really disappointing to see it held up as a good example.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:00 pm
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    There's seems to be too much of an obsession with making every new entry in a series unique and innovative. Sometimes an interesting new game comes out, people like it, and they just… want more of that.
    People want more pokemon games, to replicate that feeling of discovering new pokemon. People want more Dark Souls and Castlevania games, so that they get to explore new worlds. Every new Zelda game brings a slew of new dungeons to puzzle over.
    Yes, developers should always be considering new tweaks to the formula that may make it even better. But sometimes it feels like they get antsy after a few games, and try to re-invent the wheel for no reason. Then it flops, the series gets put on hold, and fans then need to wait years for indie games that follow the formula to come out.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:06 pm
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    Reminds me to when santa monica killed twisted metal. They never captured either of the two directions that were memorable and liked from either twisted metal back or twisted metal 2 and twisted metal head on.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:08 pm
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    A pretty timely video for Yakuza 7 at the moment.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:10 pm
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    @Design Doc I was enjoying this video up until you mentioned breath of the Wild. I happen to think that game failed just as hard as Nuts and Bolts it felt exactly as horrible to me as that game superficial elements while losing what I thought the core of the game was: puzzle solving dungeon crawling with a deep story. I actually don't like Legend of Zelda the original so any game that's like that game doesn't make me happy this game loses everything I liked about Legend of Zelda the cool items the dungeon exploration puzzle-solving in complicated dungeons that's coherent and has different themes and a linear story. I like a linear story linear stories make me very happy. And this is the first time I've actually really disagreed with you.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:12 pm
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    First Zelda was more like BotW.
    Ocarina etc. aren't really "Zelda". Zelda is an open world, not a linear story driven game that makes the player go from Mission 1 to Mission 10. That's why the first game begins in a crossroad, not a house. It's YOUR adventure, there is no "Link", there's a "Hero" (You) based on Peter Pan, the eternal child, so we can relate easily. Mario, in the other hand, can only go forward. You are Mario. It's his story. An italian plumber.

    What I'm saying is that they didn't really innovate. They looked back, to the roots of their saga.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:16 pm
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    The problem with Zelda is that different parts of the fanbase expect different things from the games. A part of the fanbase loves the exploration aspects and free form puzzle-solving, and actually feel that the Zelda core is this non linear aproach that was lacking from newer games. But fans of the series that started with the 3d games have a different view of what Zelda actually is: varied dungeons, getting items to solve puzzles, quirky characters, different enemies, a more focused and memorable story, with memorable and epic moments etc.
    With BotW, I would argue that they focused on trying to please just the first group while alienating the second. So, for the second group, the game doesnt feel like Zelda at all. I am part of this side of the fanbase and while I can see all the positives of BotW, it just doesnt feel like Zelda while I am playing it
    That is why I hope that with BotW 2 they try to merge the two "sides" of Zelda design: keep the open world, the physics based puzzles, and the exploration aspect while still giving us dungeons, unique items and a compelling storyline

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:18 pm
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    14:01 So THAT'S why I don't like Breath of the Wild as a Zelda game! I have never liked the original Zelda and MUCH preferred the type of Zelda game that originated in ALttP and OOT (and I personally was not at all fatigued by the Zelda formula after Skyward Sword).

    Don't get me wrong, BotW is still a pretty damn good game (not great as I still have too many issues with it). I just think that BotW absolutely fails to do what I liked from previous Zelda games and as such it's my least favourite Zelda game (even if it's a better standalone game than some other Zelda games).

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:26 pm
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    I keep seeing people make comparisons between Breath of the Wild and the original Legend of Zelda… and I don't see it. To say that BotW doesn't have "many hints or much direction" is flat-out untrue. The majority of the main quest allows you to simply follow map markers from point A to point B (there is an option to disable the interface, but it's just that, an option). The fact that you can skip straight to the final boss at any time means that the main quest is effectively a side quest and is not essential to completing your journey, unlike the original Legend of Zelda where beating all nine dungeons to reach Ganon was mandatory. Speaking of dungeons, LoZ has nine dungeons which are essentially combat gauntlets that are the height of the game's challenge, whereas BotW has four divine beasts that are basically puzzle boxes with almost no combat. The size of each game's world could not be more different, LoZ is fairly condensed and BotW is gigantic. It's also a common misconception than the original LoZ somehow didn't have item progression, it had a ton of it. The bow, the raft, the recorder, etc. Totally different from BotW's frontloaded progression. And so on and so on.

    It's frankly a forced comparison spurred on by Nintendo themselves, it's not based on the actual game mechanics/content.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:32 pm
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    Ain’t nothing forgettable about Brutal Legend for me, love that game to death, played the online a bunch back in the day.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:47 pm
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    I know you probably worked on this to tie in with Banjo being in smash and all, but I find it really funny you posted this right after the reveal of Yakuza 7/Yakuza Like A Dragon.

    They showed off a prototype of the RPG gameplay as an "april fools joke" earlier in the year and people were like "You should make a full game like this!". And then a couple days ago, they show the game off again, but this time with the number 7 on the end, and people react with "WAIT NO"

    I'm interested to see how it's going to turn out, the gameplay they showed was definitely not final. I think it's a very interesting direction to take it, and honestly, Yakuza already has so much RPG in it's DNA, it should fit pretty well. Plus, they've said if there's universal backlash to it, they'll go back to making the series an action game again. It's certainly going to be a cool experiment anyways

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:50 pm
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    Sheeesh… So many people in the comments are salty that BOTW was used as a good example of a series rebooting itself. Now listen, the first Zelda game that I played was Link's Awakening, and then I grew up with Ocarina, Majora and most of the 3D games that solidified the so called "Zelda formula", but when BOTW came out I actually welcomed the change of pace, because I thought the series might have been getting a little stale at the time (and mind you, I loved SS, janky motion controls and all).

    Now I'll be the first to admit that the game's far from perfect, but instead of getting aprehensive like the most nostalgic fans do, I remain hopeful that the sequels might fix the problems that this new change in direction might have brought. And who knows maybe it'll bring back some of those things that these old-school fans missed so much, but if we give up on the series, just because we want to cling to the past and don't want to let it grow and evolve, we'll never know what we might be missing in the long run.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 4:54 pm
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    This reminds me of the era where a lot of platform games shifted to sandbox-style games in their next installment. At least Sly Cooper maintains its core controls and setting.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 4:54 pm
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    I know this is not a popular opinion but breathe of the wild was a little disappointing to me, I missed dungeons, I missed a story that got me to care, breathe of the wild only had flash back and I feel like I was just doing a check list, 120 shrines, 4 dungeons, I was not really feeling it but it’s starting to grow on me, I’m just hoping breathe of the wild 2 will give me back my forest dungeon, fire, water etc

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 5:00 pm
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    I love this channel so much. Every upload is a joy in my heart <3

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 5:19 pm
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    I'm a bit disappointed that persona 3 features so prominently in this videos visuals, but there's basically no mention of how it rebranded the persona series

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 5:24 pm
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    Lovely work as always man, (though I feel like the Brutal Legend example kind of stretches the premise), but I really think this topic needs more discussion too.

    I think there's great insight to be had in asking how different sequels and spinoffs fared in changing core mechanics and why. Persona 3 in particular integrating dating-sim mechanics, and did alienate old-school SMT fans. But it's viewed successfully because it drew in more people than it lost. There are less and less of these people now, but there used to be quite the contingent who insisted that Persona was ruining SMT and identified as old school fans.

    You also identify Ace Combat Assault Horizon, which tries to do the same by simplifying its combat and adding a more generic story, and this had a sort of middling effect, alienating fans and attracting more attention than normal, but only marginally, to the point where no one talks about it and Bamco won't even release its soundtrack.

    And yet you can't not change – the recent Paradox game Imperator Rome received tremendous backlash for what was seen as a rehash of mechanics from older games.

    I think there are more videos to be made on this topic investigating where the balance is found between new mechanics and old, and how series evolve without losing their fanbase. Very much hope you'll be talking about that in the future!

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 5:46 pm
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    I want open world dungeons in Breath of the Wild 2. I want them to make places like Hyrule Castle, give us dungeons that are huge and sprawling like a mini open world.

    Give us special items from these dungeons like before but make it so most of the dungeon can be traversed with what you enter it with and the item allows you to fight the boss and find secrets and attempt the difficult challenges.
    Give us hints of lore in these dungeons with environmental story telling, maybe a room like Willy's room from The Goonies where you have a bunch of dead people around a table with treasure, making you wonder what happened but also give us actual writing in places that give us some more concrete lore.

    That's the marrying of old and new I'd love to see from the next game.

    Reply
  • September 5, 2019 at 6:17 pm
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    Like what they did with Ryu ga Gotoku 7….

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  • September 5, 2019 at 6:24 pm
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    Great idea for a video! Nice work with the Yooka-Kickstart joke insert 😉
    Brutal Legend was unfortunate. The action adventure, with crazy metal themes, a great soundtrack, and Jack Black voicing it should have been an instant classic! The story is solid, and the game is short enough to still give a chance. But it started to drag on at the end playing through the clunky RTS elements.

    Your argument on game cores vs superficial elements is great! And succinctly gets at why I really hate Nuts and Bolts.
    There is a lot of potential to explore this video concept further.
    A series like Diablo could be an interesting case study. It was a very different team that made the 3rd game. And while the game eventually became better than it was at it's release, it still lost a lot of what people loved from the first 2 games

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  • September 5, 2019 at 6:27 pm
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    I know you didn't really have time to get into it, but Persona 3 is a really interesting example. Since the og Persona was like you said in the video, a clearly marked sub-series that tried something different, and then when Persona 3 came out it – was itself ALSO tweaked and changed from the earlier Persona games while keeping some of that same core gameplay.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 6:45 pm
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    Breath of the wild was a great reboot.. but ultimately, it works only as foundation for what can be a truly great game.
    It lacks too much and it's quite barren of many elements that are necessary for an unforgettable experience.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 7:05 pm
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    Could've talked about Dead Rising 4.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 7:10 pm
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    I hated the breakable weapons so much in Zelda

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  • September 5, 2019 at 7:19 pm
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    Breath of the wild also strays from the series tradition by having fuck all content.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 7:34 pm
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    "No one celebrates a rehash."

    Excuse me? The 2D Mario games have been nothing more than level packs for Super Mario Bros. 3 for over 3 decades now and still outsell almost every other game on name recognition alone. Same with almost every sports series, Omega Force's entire catalogue, and every open world Ubisoft game (which BotW also falls under bizarrely). People don't want change, they want to get the same thing every time. That's the worst thing about gaming honestly. Series become so stale because everyone dreads change until they are absolutely forced into it.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 7:49 pm
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    As someone who played Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts but not the other games in the series, I will say that it was a good game, but I can understand why people got pissed off at the games' new mechanics. Especially as I'd been through a similar situation myself with Crash Bandicoot: Twinsanity.

    Also, I wasn't expecting to see Ace Combat: Assault Horizon in the intro montage, so that was a nice surprise. I can understand why it was there, though.

    I am kind of surprised that there was no mention of Command & Conquer: Renegade, though. One of the first instances I can remember of an established franchise going in a completely new direction gameplay-wise, and one of the better received ones at that.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 7:51 pm
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    Brutal Legend was great.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 7:51 pm
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    I really love Zelda and I’ve no clue why, I’ve played maybe 2 of them, BoW being my favorite

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  • September 5, 2019 at 8:02 pm
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    BotW was successful because nintedo fans are blind sheep who will buy any crappy game, like BotW, because nintedo tells them too. Nuts and Bolts failed because the xbox install base has little to no loyalty to microsoft and weren't going to buy a game just because microsoft wanted them too. It has nothing to do with their respective executions.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 8:16 pm
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    Wow, I played only part of Brutal Legend so far, I wouldn't have guessed it would become an RTS

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  • September 5, 2019 at 8:16 pm
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    I still hope we get some good entries to zelda that follow the old formula. BotW makes me glad that they can successfully do something different, though

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  • September 5, 2019 at 8:29 pm
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    Of course the example of "straying too far from the brand identity and alienating the fanbase" is DmC: Devil May Cry, because how could it be anything else?

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  • September 5, 2019 at 8:31 pm
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    I enjoyed the first few missions of Brutal Legend, but when everything turned into an RTS, not really :(. Is not just the genre switch what bothered me, is that even as an RTS in is not good.
    Maybe a concept like that could have worked better with MOBA mechanics rather than RTS.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 8:33 pm
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    What does RTS stand for again?

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  • September 5, 2019 at 8:39 pm
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    The more I watch these vids the more pleasant and relaxing that opening music gets.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 8:50 pm
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    This is why kh re:chain of memories works despite turning a hack and slash into an arithmetic card game, but dream drop distance and birth by sleep suck because they take a hack and slash and turn it into a shittier hack and slash

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  • September 5, 2019 at 9:27 pm
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    Majora's Mask does have dungeons and a mostly linear structure
    BotW also has the same amount of dungeons, they're just comparatively very bad, as the bulk of the game's content is a sea of repetitive and samey side stuff that also pales in comparison to MM's

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  • September 5, 2019 at 10:16 pm
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    In all fairness, almost all Zelda games are reboots of the Zelda franchise (with the exception being direct sequels such as Majora's Mask or A Link Between Worlds.)

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  • September 5, 2019 at 10:18 pm
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    I hope more classics take a nod from dragon quest 11, still has a throwback feel but has a fresh design and gameplay

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  • September 5, 2019 at 10:18 pm
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    I hope more classics take a nod from dragon quest 11, still has a throwback feel but has a fresh design and gameplay

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  • September 5, 2019 at 10:49 pm
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    I loved nuts & bolts

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  • September 5, 2019 at 10:52 pm
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    I did not care for the RTS elements of Brutal Legend

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  • September 5, 2019 at 11:15 pm
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    1:36 I’m sorry, I gotta say it. This game blows

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  • September 5, 2019 at 11:15 pm
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    Nuts and Bolts is SO goddamn boring, it's missions never seemed to ask anything creative of you so the only encouragement to be so was your own interest in….grid based vehicle customization. Riveting.

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  • September 5, 2019 at 11:19 pm
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    Nuts and Bolts mocking the collect-a-thon mechanics as archaic in the first 5 minutes did nothing to help its first impressions. Seemed extremely tone deaf

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  • September 5, 2019 at 11:24 pm
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    Why was Brutal Legend featured, it doesn’t look like a new game in a long standing series…

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  • September 6, 2019 at 2:13 am
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    how dare you tease me with a jak 2 mechanical breakdown fakeout!!

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  • September 6, 2019 at 4:15 am
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    I know some people say B&K: Nuts and Bolts would be fine if it wasn’t a Banjo game, but I really disagree. Even on its own it’s just not a good game.

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  • September 6, 2019 at 4:24 am
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    I get salty when people say that BOTW is not a Zelda game, because for me… Breath of the Wild is THE ZELDA GAME. It tells you what a Zelda game is, is not about catchy music and item progretion. Its about adventure, mystery, and so much other things that people don't understand because they keep watching the superficial stuff like "classic dungeouns".

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  • September 6, 2019 at 4:27 am
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    I think it is important to mention that even Breath of the Wild with it's success down the line with changing the Zelda formula met with great criticism initially with some of the changes particularly the weapon durability feature. Although this feature was built in and implemented well into the game and worked with the other parts to help produce a great overall experience changing things that fans love is still a fine line to walk. Keep the formula the same and people get bored and complain about lack of innovation and not taking risk but changing the formula even with good intentions and good implementation can still lead to backlash. I think it helps that the overall experience of Breath of the Wild was a great one and the game didn't have any glaring flaws as in the other examples. Anyway good food for thought and thanks for the great video!

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  • September 6, 2019 at 6:20 am
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    It was fascinating to hear him talk about Banjo Kazooie and Brutal Legend, but IMO the video became way too much of a rehash of every other youtuber once he started talking about Breath of the Wild. A different game would have made a more memorable example, I'm hoping to think of some.

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  • September 6, 2019 at 6:34 am
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    nuts and bolts is a bad game

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  • September 6, 2019 at 6:56 am
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    Feels kinda like what is happening with the mainline SMT series these days. After having almost complete replaced the old guard, the new people in charge of it kinda don't seem to get what the series is about.

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  • September 6, 2019 at 6:57 am
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    A couple of other less obvious examples (overlooking obvious things like jumping on the 3D / open world bandwagon): Black and White 1 and 2 (A more organic, system driven god game vs a more controlled strategy game), Dead Space (The dreaded shift to setpiece action), Titanfall 1 and 2 (Exclusively online to one of the best single-player shooter experiences of it's generation), Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War (Each installment of the franchise shakes the whole formula up, which is cool… when it works)… I think change like this is healthy for a franchise, but can absolutely be a scary prospect.

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  • September 6, 2019 at 7:08 am
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    Wow, I actually never knew Brutal Legends turned RTS halfway through

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  • September 6, 2019 at 7:15 am
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    I'm surprised you didn't compare Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, seeing how they tackle both relative extremes from the same company.

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  • September 6, 2019 at 7:28 am
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    Part of me was expecting Pokemon or Paper Mario to be mentioned

    I remember when Brutal Legend came out and never heard anything from it since, didn't know about the RTS thing that's weird

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